Hyderabad, Nov. 18: Despite targets periodically set by the government, sanitary facilities in most states in the country have improved little over the centuries.In Andhra Pradesh, 60 per cent of households in villages and 25 per cent in urban areas still do not have a toilet.
Even when toilets are built, they are not used. Some 42 lakh individual latrines were built in the state in the last one decade, but 70 per cent of them are lying unused. Official statistics show that Andhra Pradesh tops the country in having the lowest number of working toilets.
politics is about rights, not toilets.
i was hoping to find a toilet here, but it's completely dry. toilets are not rights. how about people who have to clean up dry toilets? shouldn't any discussion of rights begin there? one learns once again from the separatist movement that the upper caste, hindu liberal, despite all his loud talk about rights, is a strict believer in the old, ordered way of life. he can lead you into a big battle over how to divide up rivers, lands and even subterranean wealth but never talk about what's in it for everyone. that was decided long ago in his favour, so it doesn't even occur to him that his sense of priorities isn't everyone's sense of priorities.
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15 comments:
Kuffir,
I read a few (very few) of those papers and found some of them useful. Mahenra Dev's paper has some information on farmers. Whenever I went home I found it puzzling that many farmers, some of them had up to 30 acres of land, complaining about expenses and debts. Mahendra Dev gives some figures:
"Most of the problems of the farmers relate to credit and debt. The 59th Round Survey of NSS provides information on outstanding debt of farmers.
Table 6 provides percentage of indebtedness households and by source of loan. At the all India level around 49% of the farmer hhs. were indebted (col.2 in Table 6). The levels of indebtedness vary from state to state. Andhra
Pradesh has the highest percentage of indebtedness (82%) while Meghalaya has the lowest percentage (only 4% are indebted). However, we are more interested in the source of loan because institutional credit is important for farmers...."
Then he goes on to discuss the proportions of institutional credit etc and some measures to alleviate this. I also found papers by K.Srinivasulu and Ananth Maringanti informative.
Of course, your point may be different but I think that some of those papers are useful.
"politics is about recognizing their right to not break ranks."
Incisive truth!
Kuffir, politics also does not seem to be about women. and children. where do the women fit in here? are they demanding top positions and combined harvesters? or are they demanding working toilets and taps with water? i am not hearing the local news, so i don't know, is there a women's voice to the present phase of the telengana movement (upper or lower caste, urban or rural), i just want to know what their expectations are of this movement, i hope you write a bit on it in future posts, and any links/articles would be deeply appreciated.
swarup garu,
we've discussed these issues in the past. i'm sure there are papers that are useful there. but how many of them are relevant to a discussion of social or economic transformation of telangana, specifically?
anu,
'where do the women fit in here?'
very important question. thanks for all those questions.
As someone who put the articles, let me elaborate. The intent is to understand the issues and the socio-economic and political context for the feeling of neglect and discrimination by the significant number of people in Telangana (even the ones who may or may not agree that separate state is the solution). In that sense, I found them to be useful and relevant.
Certainly, for me they are more useful than diversionary discussions; and trivializing discussions with cheap potshots at Jayashankar, Kondaram and any one in the separatist movement; or trying to read numbers out of context; or trivializing the issue as a purely telangana upper-caste, middle class opportunism and saying that anyone from other groups supporting is just gullible or brainwashed. This, for me, is purely self-serving logic. And engaging in scare-mongering by equating the issue with RJB and fascist movements, without even making even minimal effort to understand why the issue has been lingering for so many years and how any one interested in a united state could have acted differently to mitigate such a sense of alienation sounds is useless, if not mischievous.
And I find it completely cynical to take cheap shots at human rights activists mentioned( Haragopal and Balagopal included) as somehow they have argued that the regional developmental rights are over and above anything else. For anyone familiar with grassroots politics of AP of the last three decades, should be knowing the immense human rights work done by many of these folks. And how they fought on many issues - be it on caste issues, or socio-economic and social justice issues all across the state, from Srikakulam to Mahbubnagar; from Adilabad to Chitoor. Someone only has to look thru the human rights bulletins, people movements and district level newsletters to understand the wide range of issues fought on.
And lastly, coming to scavengers and toilets - let me point out that the day Balagopal (yes, a brahmin Gopal) died, he was arguing more than to 600 to 700 cases, involving poor and oppressed - ranging from rights for Yanadis on Hyderabad roads to scavenger safety rights to undertrial prisoner rights to labor union rights. And many of the folks in human rights community (and yes, the ones supporting separate telangana today) were/are part and parcel of the struggles of the scavenger workers.
So, if the intent of indulging in talks about toilets or whatever out of context and trying to divert attention from the issues discussed therein, and trying to characterize the folks of other side as being somehow unidimensional and narrow minded is just being dishonest and distasteful, I think.
(Just curious, there was no concern about toilets and other issues, when it is all about JPN argument that there was no discrimination at all! Anyhow, I find is intellectually dishonest, for some one like JPN to take the numbers out of context, which the HDR report itself cautions one against.)
Lastly, if someone is really interested in the scanvenger community struggles, there is any excellent field study by Gita Ramaswamy and Vimala of HBT on Safayi Karmachari Andolan, " Maa koode Chandalam".
If that matters, yes, they two are supporting separate Telangana.
"Certainly, for me they are more useful than diversionary discussions; and trivializing discussions with cheap potshots at Jayashankar, Kondaram and any one in the separatist movement; or trying to read numbers out of context; or trivializing the issue as a purely telangana upper-caste, middle class opportunism and saying that anyone from other groups supporting is just gullible or brainwashed. This, for me, is purely self-serving logic. And engaging in scare-mongering by equating the issue with RJB and fascist movements, without even making even minimal effort to understand why the issue has been lingering for so many years and how any one interested in a united state could have acted differently to mitigate such a sense of alienation sounds is useless, if not mischievous."
Interesting!
There are two blogs that I read very keenly, one is kufr and another one written entirely by a group of well established academicians, activists, journalists etc with long publications lists in EPW and such, with equally long sabbaticals and fellowships supported research on a range of issues. It is called kafila. Check out one of their latest post appealing to govt for talks... read closely the logic therein.
Yet, adult indians will rarely question them, because we are taught to treat anything coming from within institutions as to mean 'wisdom' and questioning that amounts to disrespect, trivializing etc, for only the subaltern can indulge in that!
If Kuffir were to suddenly step out and announce that he has writing from the comfort and safety of a paid job, throws up a CV of academic papers, he would be considered differently... This phenomenon interests me very much, the culture of iconising academicians and activists. Balagopal was exceptional, and every Brahmin does not transform into a Balagopal and automatically ensuring that every subaltern not raise issues.
The fact that scavengers exist is to a large extent the failure of academics, activists and well paid indians not putting their voice and effort together, The existence of dozens of academic papers on the same does not change the lived realities of the arunthathiyar and others. They and their future generations still happen to be staring at a life that offers no change. If one from their community does reach the level of education so as to be able to read and digest Gita Ramswamy's paper, he would rest easy(?) If an academic writes a paper does it mean that the problem disappeared? and should discussions on the topic mean discrediting of such an hallowed study by even more hallowed personality? in other words what you say is, nothing is useful if it comes from ordinary people.
Instead of flashing academic papers as the end all, it would be useful if discussions and concerns by ordinary people could materialize and lead to their inclusions in the movements manifestos (if there are any).
srinivas,
'And lastly, coming to scavengers and toilets..'
well, that's the crux of the problem. you'll always come to it last.
i'm not taking potshots at personalities, mr.srinivas. i'm questioning their perspective. just as i'm questioning the perspective represented by the articles/essays in your site.
you've remarked on my understanding of 'issues' and of 'trivialising' them. that's another problem with the brahminical perspective which informs this movement. it brooks no dissent. background, merit, scholarship-- or in other words, roots, descent, blood and purity are important to this movement and its votaries.
what roots do i have to question 'grassroots' activists and scholars like prof.haragopal and balagopal? well, there are certain things like 'democracy' and 'rights', 'minorities' and most importantly, 'importance of dissent', that both of them used to regularly espouse at public speeches and in writing and i thought they, or haragopal because he's the one left now, really meant what they said. i guess i should have questioned myself when i first heard them as a student a long age ago: what right, background, roots, scholarship do i have to attend these meetings?
as for jayashankar: do i really need to take potshots at him? he's taken enough potshots at himself. i hope he has an explanation for (at least, himself) on how the andhraites stole 3 lakh govt jobs, at least. 3 lakhs, not 25,000 or 58,000 or 1 lakh.
about taking figures out of context: who took the figures of education expenditure in the three regions out of all context of prices, references and source, and put it in a plaint to the elected highest officials in the land? and that's the respect the ordinary people of india, telangana and andhra pradesh get from the steeped-in-democratic-traditions, learned intellectual agitators of this movement. i don't wish to dwell on how many other times they flaunted selective data/facts out of all context. how can anyone 'badmouth' them? they're badmouthing themselves-- here's an example:
a news report says a few among them are planning to organize/have organized a 'mock court' today where they will make their case for divorce from the 'andhra badmash' (that's what the posters they printed and exhibited 'courageously' on television say-- (http://andhraheadlines.com/BrowseArticle.aspx?CatID=4&ArtID=60737): among the attendees will be some of these people (i am quoting from the news report)--' They said that TGSS is a non-political organizsation comprising of intellectuals like Doctors, Lawyers, Prorfessors, Engineers, employees and others who are working for the cause of Telangana. It would work on non-violent Gandhian methods to mobilize and involve Telangana people in the action program chalked out. Prof. (Dr) A Gopal Kishan, Mr Chukka Ramaiah MLC, Mr Pothuri Venkateswara Rao, senior Journalist, Prof. Dr. D Raja Reddy, former NIMS Director would be the advisory council of this new outfit.
Mr Gali Vinod Kumar, Osmania University professor said that they would conduct mock court on divorce of the two regions and render injustice to Telangana region.
Prof. Ravindar, Ms Jyothi Kiran, High advocate, Mr G. Narsiah, Mr Venu Gopal were also present. '
'dongalu', 'valasa paalakulu' 'valasa vaadulu', 'dopididarulu' and now 'badmash'--and a hundred other epithets are freely used at meetings attended or addressed by the 'human rights activists' you think i'm taking 'cheap potshots' at. i repeat, i don't have to take any potshots, expensive or affordable, at any of them anymore. they lost a great deal of their moral authority the day the second student committed suicide. the first might have been an accident that couldn't be avoided. the rest definitely are not.
to continue:
'neglect' doesn't translate into 'discrimination'. neglect is neglect, whether in uttarandhra or telangana. discrimination is what the ruling classes/caste in telangana and uttarandhra and coastal andhra together practice against the lower classes/castes. the disingenuousness of the argument that the velamas in telangana have more in common with the dalits of telangana than the kammas of coastal andhra is so breathtaking in its creative sweep that i can only admire the genius of the 'intellectuals' who thought up that formulation. i think again again of what dr.ambedkar said:' caste is not division of work, but division of workers'. telugu is a tool for the dalitbahujans of andhra and telangana to come together and assert their rights in the future. what else could this movement be but a hindutva campaign? it takes several socially, economically disenfranchised dalitbahujans to speak up against one upper caste oppressor. it took all of the dalit vote in uttar pradesh to stand up against upper caste rule. so, why not divide the workers?
that's one of the primary aims of this campaign-- to divide gaddar and katti padma rao, keep gorati venkanna and vangapandu apart. you don't need to brainwash dalitbahujans of telangana to make them join this movement. i respect the decision of the more vocal sections to join this movement. unlike the so-called lntellectual leaders of the separatist movement, i understand people who disgree. i don't question their understanding of issues or their intelligence. that said, there are many reasons/explanations why dalitbahujans join mainstream movement. one of them is, as you know, the so-called process of sanskritisation that an upper caste intellectual, like the upper caste intellectual leaders of this current movement, had formulated 5-6 decades ago. but i look for a simpler explanation-- there will always be many dalitbahujans willing to compromise with caste than fight it to climb up the social ladder, even if only a few among would actually succeed. so, this current movement *is* another version of the ram janmabhoomi movement, another 'gujarati asmita' movement which also attracted some elements among obcs and even dalits and adivasis. and for others who have waged long struggles against oppression of all kinds-- i wonder why they aren't questioning the new camaraderie the upper caste politicians and intellectuals display towards them. i guess they're too tired to notice any contradictions.
lastly, it's my view that upper activists who 'help' people from the marginalized castes also help themselves-- it accelerates the process of their own evolution into equal beings.
lastly and finally, you've said on a previous post:
'If we are really interested in issues, think it's worthwhile to reflect upon what could have real supporters of SamakyaAndhra done to avoid this ugly situation we are in today.'
who is this 'we'? i don't belong in the class of those who decide the course of other people's lives, of those who rule. there are two things which connect you and i: the caste system and telugu. if telugu isn't enough grounds to connect telanganis and andhraites, what's left? i've no intention of building or maintaining relations forged by caste.
to further continue:
there is no 'we', wise people like you have already pointed that out. 'we' is dead, dying. don't depend on there being any 'we' in the future you envisage, not even in telangana. today, when you consider the questions i raise residual or contingent issues, not core or important issues, we already have wide division in our perspectives-- there wouldn't even be any temporary glue like telangana to bind us together, tomorrow-- how will the 'we' survive?
prof.haragopal says: the samaikyandhra movement has no 'naitikata', no moral position (yes, another instance of badmouthing 'opponents'). i wonder if he has thought about all the people, other than big businessmen, involved in it. but i think i need to make something very clear now, because you seem to assume i need to offer explanations, or justify a movement i've no formal connections with: i've written about caste based oppression, politics and policies in andhra pradesh and india on this blog ever since i started writing here. writing about the separatist movement and its inherent casteist ethos is a part of that process of protest writing (yes, this is the whole of the activism that i can afford to do-- i'm cheap). and if andhra pradesh stays united, i'll continue to write on the same issues. and if it is divided, i'll continue to write on the same issues. it's you who have to ask yourselves: where shall i find my next telangana?
thanks for your comment.
..without even making even minimal effort to understand why the issue has been lingering for so many years and how any one interested in a united state could have acted differently to mitigate such a sense of alienation sounds is useless, if not mischievous.
Srinivas: Would you agree that post-reforms, things have improved in Telangana even if it were by accident and not by targeted efforts by the united state? If that is the case, is the issue of "lingering for so many years" irrelevant? Don't you believe that the active participation of middle classes in the current separatist movement is mostly about taking the full custody of opportunities in Hyderabad? Even if the some of the issues that have been the heart of separatist movement since it originated are still alive, is the current demand for separate state really all about the same age old issues? You seem to believe that people from other regions have to pay the price of separation for not 'heeding' to the concerns of people in Telangana over the years. Isn't it the politicians or the kind of democratic mechanism we have - supposed to pay the price instead? Also, "anyone interested in a united state" like me see the same kind of problems everywhere in the state or the country and how should one connect that concern to the idea of a separate state?
kufr
This is off topic...where are the moral police of Bangalore when Swamy Nityananda having fun??? lol
I dont find them...
where are the messiahs in pink chaddis who are the defenders of Indian culture?
or did they change the definition of morality and Indian culture.
srinivas,
missed this:
'(Just curious, there was no concern about toilets and other issues, when it is all about JPN argument that there was no discrimination at all! Anyhow, I find is intellectually dishonest, for some one like JPN to take the numbers out of context, which the HDR report itself cautions one against.)'
was that curiosity/surprise about me? or jpn? that post was about how 'growth and development', as measured by the ruling classes (which includes those leading the separatist movement), wasn't different from growth in the other regions. and not about what i think of that 'development'.
just curious, where were you when i was writing against caste mostly, and not against this casteist separatist movement? don't blame you. this isn't a popular blog that writes about more important issues, so there is hardly any traffic here, most times. many posts go uncommented upon. but thanks to telangana, currently the hippest movement among indian netizens, this unimportant corner in the net is being recognized too. thanks again.
Kufr & Anu,
Thanks for your detailed response. Certainly, I would like to continue the conversation. Will be back in few days - caught up at work. and travel. (sorry, didn't see a way to send private email).
Certainly find your blog interesting and useful. Thanks to Swarup gari blog for leading me to it.
Kufr,
"if telugu isn't enough grounds to connect telanganis and andhraites, what's left? i've no intention of building or maintaining relations forged by caste."
Indeed that is the question.As a song sponsored by lagadapati on tv put it ..yemunnadhi ..yemunnnadhi. If telugu is no longer the basis of telugu people to stay in one political entity than why should rayalaseema stay together with kostha ? why should hyderabad stay with telangana ? why should khammam stay with telangana ? and me with my neighbour? on what principle after denying language as the principle ?
Delhi owes an answer to the nation on this . Will Srinivas tell me on what moral basis will he deny a demand which seeks a separate state for hyderabad ? if telangana is granted, i dont see any reason why such movement should not develop among many such movements.
Kuffir,
I agree with match of what you said. I still think some academic papers have a role with data etc. I think that the paper by Mahendra Dev addresses some of the issues you mentioned.
To all,
please drop garu.
Kuffir,
I should have said that academic papers are important to somebody like who is away from the scene. Data is often unreliable, one should continuosly ask questions like you asked in the next post and look for more inclusibe data.
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