15/04/07

reality check

a comment i'd posted here (which is awaiting approval... i guess):

scared of data now, rc? the whole truth, the complete picture?
in post after post you were very explicit about who opposed collection of data, why or how it was done. why are you scared of naming them, now? why are you scared of telling us why the data was suppressed and how it was suppressed, now?
1) let's look at a summary of the hints you dropped in your arguments, in your earlier posts, when you were quite sure about who was doing it :
question: who were/are suppressing data?
reality check: politicians who were scared of the 'truth'. obc politicians in particular. dravidian politicians specifically. (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/06/12/politicians-vs-data-1-0/)
q: and who did they want to please by suppressing data?
rc: the obcs. because 'Unlike SC/STs, OBCs are powerful politically, economically, and socially.' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/05/16/the-usual-suspect-implementation/). 'The OBCs are the most powerful people in India today. They were also powerful yesterday, 50years back, 100 years, 200 years back.'(http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/11/another-article-mandal-redux/).
q: is there any evidence that the obcs 'are powerful politically, economically, and socially', and in fact so powerful that they are 'the most powerful people in india today'?
rc: oh yes. they own hundreds of acres of land, paddy fields, banana plantations, skodas, bungalows, businesses. look at their children! 'They go to the best of the best schools. A vast majority of them have highly educated parents like doctors, lawyers, engineers. Many of the richest families including the Tamil Bill Gates are from OBC communities.'
q: where's the *data* that records their wealth?
rc: you have to take reality check's word on that. that should be enough to tell you that they're the 'most powerful people in india today'. '..the Mudaliars, Gounders, Naickers. These communities are the powerful landownding zamins on TN.''In TN, the OBCs are Mudaliars, Pillais, Gounders, and Thevars, at least these are the dominant ones.'
q: those are a handful of caste groups from tamil nadu. they are the 'most powerful people in india today?'
rc: 'That my friend is the key. Once you start studying the actual positons in society of these OBCs, you will be amazed. The same families from ciommunities, that were not backward to begin with, are cornering most of the benefits of reservation.' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/11/another-article-mandal-redux/)
q: and what's the actual position?
rc: 'Everyone knows, any increase in the number of seats reserved to OBCs will instantly be cornered by wealthy and educated OBCs like Mudaliars, Lingayats, Pillais, and others. This is because these communities have really smart students who can easily beat the Forward castes exams and in the university proper. Why would they not ? They attend the best schools, are well respected in society, have both parents and grandparents who are educated, have access to the best tuition classes, and so forth.' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/the-obc-script/)
q: mudaliars, gounders, pillais...again? how about thousands of the other backward castes in india?
rc: others? india? 'OBCs from other states can never compete with OBCs from Tamilnadu. THis is one of the biggest issues that will render the nationwide reservation useless. Do you really think a Kurmi from Bihar can compete with the Pillais and Mudaliars of Tamilnadu (who are into their 4th generation medical professions) ?' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/05/15/tn-defies-national-trend/)
rc: so this issue is all about mudaliars, gounders, pillais, naickers... and how they are stopping the collection of data in all states in india to corner all the seats at the national level?
q: no, they're stopping collection of data only in tamil nadu - 'That is the reason TN has never done a study of individual classes unlike almost all other states.' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/05/22/obcs-are-52-give-or-take-230-million/).
q: so this issue is really about mudaliars, gounders, pillais, naickers.. and how they're trying to stop the collection of data in tamil nadu because they wish to corner all the seats at the national level?
rc: no. it looks like students from andhra pradesh are going to corner all the seats at the national level. ('For every AP candidate who made it, there are plenty who “just missed out”. It is anyones guess that AP will project its dominance further by monopolizing the new OBC quota as well.' http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/the-iit-coaching-centre-riddle/ ).
q: so this issue is really about how mudaliars, gounders, pillais, naickers are trying to stop collection of data in tamil nadu so that students from andhra pradesh can corner all the seats at the national level?
rc: no. the issue is all about how 'Only one community is paying for the sins of all.' (http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/12/what-about-standards/).
from the earliest posts on your blog you'd started reducing the 'most serious issue confronting us', all of us in india who bother about such things, into a virtual war against the 'mudaliars, pillais, gounders, naickers, thevars'. into a vast conspiracy to make 'only one community' pay for 'the sins of all'.
is that a 'caste-neutral' position that reflects a 'non-frivolous attitude'? and is it 'logical' in your view?
2) i'm glad you admit that your concerns are mostly about 'only one community'. i also regard that as an admission that this whole issue is about communities/castes - let's not pretend it's otherwise.
i wish you had the courage tell us 'who' actually were responsible for stopping collection of any kind of information on the obcs. i wish you'd admitted it was people like you. people who are asking 'where's the data', now. people, classes, castes, who occupied all the positions of power in all institutions comprising the indian establishment since independence. people who were wrongly taken to be 'caste-neutral' and objective for a long, long time by the indian masses. for a long time, the very issue of reservations would be dismissed by saying 'we don't to build a second-rate, third-rate nation', now opposition has taken more sophisticated forms - it pretends to understand 'the need for reservations for the truly needy' but its objective remains the same as earlier. you don't need to question the whole idea, you just need to pick one 'inconsistency' and the courts, or some other pillar of our democracy would do the job of stalling the whole process (for decades, if possible), right?
you're scared to admit who actually, consistently, opposed collection of any kind of information on the obcs because you've consistently led your 'caste-neutral' audiences to believe that it was politicians, obc politicians acting at the behest of 'powerful obcs' who were responsible for opposing any collection of 'data'.
actually, how 'powerful' are the 'powerful' obcs?
in one of your very first posts, you'd said - 'Luckily most northern states and other southern states will escape this uniquely Tamil accident of history'(http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/12/what-about-standards/). your implication was that the rest of the country wasn't a victim of 'this uniquely tamil accident of history'. meaning this phenomenon was 'uniquely tamil'. meaning the obcs weren't as 'powerful' elsewhere as they are in tn.
and in every post after that you drop enough generalised hints to convey the impression that it is perhaps a 'uniquely pan-indian' phenomenon.
you've no evidence to claim that obcs are 'powerful politically, economically, socially' and 'are the most powerful people in India today. They were also powerful yesterday, 50 years back, 100 years, 200 years back.'
but you do it - and only sometimes add the qualifier ' obcs from tn', 'some obcs' etc.,
you've no evidence to claim that obcs were ever 'powerful politically' to influence/oppose or otherwise distort formulation of policy at the national level, leave alone subverting implementation of policy. on the contrary, there's enough evidence to justify the conclusion that the obcs have been a 'uniquely powerless' group of castes in india throughout history, and specially so after independence. we need to go back just 50 years ((not 100 years,not 200 years) to realize the extent of this 'powerlessness':
let's look at the broad categories of political actors at the national/state level after independence, and the role of obc politicians and interests in moulding policy:
* the congress occupied the largest and most crucial space in the nation's politics, and for the longest period of time, and in the version of undifferentiated 'nationalism' that they advocated, only differences that were considered significant were differences between rival upper caste groups on who got the top political jobs. over sixty percent of legislators in all the big states like uttar pradesh, bihar, madhya pradesh, west bengal, andhra pradesh, maharashtra etc., were from a few castes like brahmins, rajputs, bhumihars, kayasths, reddies, kammas, marathas etc., the parliament reflected the same kind of picture. if you check how many non-upper caste politicians were chief ministers of any state, including tamil nadu, during this period, you'll come up with not more than a handful of names. the obcs, together with muslims and all other minorities shared around 15-20% of legislative, or policy making space (the balance left after the dalits and the tribals had occupied their seats). that was the 'congress system of politics'.
* the communists and other so-called left parties, and the left within the congress did not want any part in the formulation of such policy - in true marxian analysis, the obcs, composed as they're of mostly small peasants, tradesmen, craftsmen, landless labourers, constituted 'the scum' of the earth, pre-capitalist classes who had to 'decay and die' in order that an undifferentiated proletariat could emerge. any special efforts to help them to survive would be 'reactionary' and conservative. most of these 'leftists' were again from the upper castes and the intermediate castes.
* the right, as represented by the jan sangh and to some extent by the swatantra party and others weren't interested in the issue of positive discrimination at all. their composition was almost exclusively upper caste.
that was the composition of india's political parties, elected public fora, the ruling classes, with minor changes in some states like tamil nadu, from 1947 to 1977. almost totally upper caste, the parties had no space for any obc representation at any decision-making level within their parties. and no space in their policy agendas for the obcs. in fact, most of them actually worked towards thwarting attempts to bring obc issues onto the mainstream agenda. this lopsided distribution of political power was fuelled to a large extent by historical social and economic inequalities - and in turn, it sustained and further widened these divisions. let's look at how it affected policy and thought on reservations:
* the formulation of the term 'other backward classes' itself represents a failure to correctly identify divisions within society. nehru didn't like the name 'caste' and wanted to brush away the historical, as he considered it, baggage associated with it,
* the census data of 1951, which had compiled information on castes, was suppressed,
* the kalelkar commission report, which had highlighted the continuing divisions within society, was brushed aside too in 1956,
* pre-independence policy of reservations, including those for the scheduled castes, were subjected to a barrage of litigation in the courts,
* many state governments succeeded in 'reviewing' and diluting or scrapping altogether existing (pre-independence) policy, and continuous efforts were made to rationalize 'reservations' by introducing 'economic criteria' etc., (like in bihar and andhra pradesh),
* except for a few states in the south etc., most states in the north and the west didn't really have any definite reservations policy, and policies were formulated only after the mandal commission,
* the second backward classes commission, mandal, had to be sneaked in during a brief interval during which the party divinely 'ordained' the party of governance since independence had been voted out,
* the commission's report was ignored for more than ten years, and it's not been implemented fully after twenty seven years, (an aside: how long did the govt take to decide not a single seat 'open' to upper caste students would be taken away in the iits/iims and other central institutions? twenty seven days? twenty seven minutes?)
* kalelkar and mandal had both asked for introduction of caste in at least one census, and they were both refused,
this means reservations for the obcs effectively took off, nationwide, less than two decades ago. which also means that they had started after all large-scale recruitment in the public sector had effectively dried up, and so had recruitment in government, at the state and central level. which , in effect, means that reservations for obcs were just so much hot air.
yes, you know most of the above history, but i don't think you know how the obcs interpret it. it highlights their utter 'powerlessness', their insignificance, so how can they interpret it without any resentment?
3) now i'll tell you why the mandal rulebook is more important to you, upper caste anti-reservationists, than to the obcs.
socialism as practised in india, as barbarindian says, was immoral. it stole from the many and served the interests of a select few. so when you say the select few have made 'sacrifices' or are making 'sacrifices', what can one say? you must be joking, right? the mandal commission points out quite clearly who were making sacrifices.
and this is why the question 'who' becomes important - who benefitted? who lost? the mandal commission doesn't just tell us, at a very basic level, who lost. it also tells us who gained. for the obcs, it identifies the victors. by caste. the obcs know now who the victors are, they see them everywhere, in all institutions of government and civil society, holding the reins. so time-tested starategems of questioning the legality of this act or that act, or any other methods to stop, delay or dilute reservations are recognized for what they are - pure dramebaazi. the questions the obcs want to ask are much more basic - what is the nature of indian nation? can it be called a 'nation'?
you're essentially having a debate with yourselves, rc, the obcs aren't interested in it. you read history selectively just as you choose data selectively. fifty years ago, there were two unequal sides. there still are two unequal sides...but fifty years ago no political party/group was willing to recognize the fact there were obcs in the country. now, none of them can afford to look away - each one of them recognizes the intensity of the resentment and anger, that i had talked about earlier, among the obcs. they can't hide behind any 'modern' rhetoric anymore. mandal changed all that.
obc organizations have been demanding a caste census for over twenty five years, if i remember correctly...("Do you actually know what a caste census entails ?" rc, i wish you'd be unrestrained as this in expressing your contempt for the lower castes all the time. like barbarindian who admits "i don't read books written by shudras". makes for refreshingly honest writing). ever since the mandal commission was formed. if anti-reservationists do not like the data that the ncbc has to offer, they should forget the 'illusion' that the government would go get the kind of data they want- that has been the norm for the last sixty years, when it was considered the bounden duty of the government to dance to whatever silly objections, grouses etc., the litigating upper castes nursed. no government can do that now- they've to listen to the other side too. so any 'study' that seeks to be 'selective' will naturally be opposed by the obcs.
census data on the backward castes can be collected just as data on the scheduled castes is (this is how it is collected: respondents are asked two questions: 1) does a respondent belong to a scheduled caste, 2) what caste does he/she belong to). the second question (the first question needn't be asked) would naturally be asked of all castes, not just the obcs. the obcs are defined by social/educational/economic markers. censuses already collect some socio-economic data, more information can be collected in the fresh census. and the castes can be identified as 'backward' only after all data is tabulated. don't nurse the 'illusion' that some politicians nurse the 'illusion' that a census can be selective.
so if such a census were held, and it yielded reasonably accurate numbers of each caste and if these castes were measured against the criteria for 'social and educational bakwardness' folks like you assume that a lot of castes would be excluded, right? you especially would be interested in the exclusion of certain tamil castes. now on what basis are you assuming that this'd happen?
there haven't been any marked changes in the overall development of those castes which were identified as backward by the mandal commission since it submitted its report - even the nsso has produced evidence that the backward classes are in the same position they were in in 1978. the mandal commission has said that they occupied less than 12% of lower class jobs in govt and the public sector and around 4% higher class jobs. the nsso says that they occupy less than 12% jobs in the 'formal sector', which is more damning than the mandal figure because it means the obcs share of the best jobs in the country, jobs in the organized public sector, the government and the organized private sector is less than 12% ! the nsso says the obcs score less than the average in education too. you might assume their position is better in employment in the state governments but even there the nsso says they are underrepresented. or do you, like barbarindian, believe that the obcs have grown fat on the subsidies they receive from the government and made millions from working in programmes like the nrega? talking of subsidies - do you know that an upper caste individual travlling in a car for 30 minutes probably consumes 10 times more subsidy than a lower caste individual, buying food stuffs from a fair price shop, does in 30 days? that's what a study implies - it says the total benefit to any individual from the pds works out to rs.2.50 per month. as for pro-weaker sections scams like the nrega, do you know that they usually constitute less than 3% of the centre's total budget, and out of this 3% is usually spent and out of that more than 85% goes to upper caste babus, contractors and babus? or do you think obc farmers have grown so disgusted of the surpluses they have made from subsidised inputs like fertilizer (which mostly go to support inefficient upper-caste run companies)... that they are committing suicide in droves?
instead of the number of castes/population of the castes going down there is every possibility that it'd go up. you think the tn list will go down - but look at bengal, andhra, orissa, gujarat and other states. the numbers would go up in those states. the numbers that'd come up would surprise everyone, in my view. and if a few castes which were identified as backward by mandal are excluded by this 'census' please don't assume that they'd simply step down without a whimper. the whole parameters of 'backwardness' would change. the benchmark could become 'others' instead of 'all'. 'backwardness' would be measured against 'others', the upper castes, rather than 'all'. even the '50% open category' dictum would be questioned. and ugly questions like which are the castes who benefitted the most from the existence of the government of india since independence would be asked. and the answers would provide all the evidence of the 'discrimination the obcs never faced' (according to you). for instance, consider this minor detail - before the mandal commission's recommendations were implemented, in the late eighties, the government recruitment would run to more than 2,00,000 jobs a year. it was much more in the 70s, sixties and fifties. it was going down steadily and by the time the the courts actually let the govt implement reservations in central govt jobs, it had come down drastically. do you know that the number of jobs the obcs actually got because of mandal runs to not more than 39,000 until now? compare this against recruitment of upper caste individuals, in millions, during our best 'socialist' years. and do you know that even in average yearly recruitment, the number of obcs recruited, falls much below the 27% figure? and at the current rate of recruitment obcs would probably reach the figure 27% (as a precentage of obcs in overall jobs), hopefully, in another hundred years or so?
so that's what i mean when i say the 'mandal rulebook', which has been haunting this country for twenty seven years (but which doesn't warrant ten minutes of your scrutiny), could become more important to you than to the obcs. so start praying that the obcs remember the 'mandal rulebook' in the eventuality that a census is held. and also start praying that such an eventuality doesn't arise. i realize you're already doing that...and covering that up by assuming a mask of 'objectivity' and ' caste-neutrality' and warning your readers about 'dreams of casteless society' etc., good luck.

25 comments:

Shivam said...

absolutely killer post

Krish said...

Man, you are amazing.

Anyhow, reality check and barbarindians are two desperate souls who are trying to protect the monopoly of brahmins, obtained through racism and apartheid, in any possible way. I wouldn't expect any sense from them. Also I don't think they will be able to comprehend what you have told here. If they possessed this ability, they wouldn't be talking this crap in the first place.

Krish said...

The very fact that some of the OBCs in Tamilnadu are powerful explains the success of reservations system. We are seeing second generation of OBCs taking up engg and medicine. This itself is a proof that reservation system is a success. If every state can emulate Tamilnadu in reservations, we can accelerate the process of levelling the playing field.

Reason said...

Q. Can OBCs hide behind assertions of thousand years of discrimination and oppression?

Yogendra Yadav's Answer: No.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/OPINION/Editorial/LEADER_ARTICLE_Grab_This_Opportunity/articleshow/1881199.cms

The government wishes to hide behind assertion about thousand years of discrimination and oppression.

This again is not an appropriate response. We need to distinguish the OBCs from the SC. Dalits have suffered from centuries of oppression and discrimination, but this is not true of all the OBCs.

vatsan said...

yes, OBC reservations is a good idea,

but then in TN every caste claims to be backward :D thts why reservation was a success.

Cosmic Voices said...

That was a great post to read after my long break from the blogosphere.

ravi srinivas said...

Is it not strange that those who support OBC reservation and cite the first Backward classes Commission do not tell you that
that Commission included women
in the backward classes.OBC reservation is another name
for appeasing powerful castes.
Those who talk of 'success' of reservations in Tamilnadu will
nevel tell you the recommendations
of the Sattanathan Commission in 70s and Ambashankar Commission
in 80s on creamy layer, how some
castes benefit the most from reservations and elimination of
some castes from OBC list.They will
not tell you that OBC reservation
was hiked to 50% although no
backward class commission recommended it.The solution is to move towards an affirmative
action plan that includes women
and economically weaker sections
irrespective of caste and religion
and ensuring that only the really
backward among OBCs benefit.In Tamilnadu 88% of the state's
population is declared as 'socially and educationally backward' so that 69% reservation
can be given.Krish, Shivam may even
support 100% reservation for OBCs.

Amrit said...

Hi Kufr.

First time here. Quite an engaging post. Still, it's astounding to see how rhetoric is used to promote the ideology of reservations. Given the current realities, yes, had I been a pessimist, I would say the reservations are a good idea, but I'm not, and I hope there are a few thousands (or a few million) people in our country who can see through the undergrowth of caste-obsession.

As Ravi rightly says, we need an affirmative action that helps the weaker sections -- all the weaker sections -- and not through silly reservations, but through creating a level-playing field for everybody. True, the upper castes are strong, and they are "vicious" too, and they'll certainly use their muscle/political power to thwart the positive strides, but this is where the real governance, the real political will, will come into the picture and put them back to their place. I don't know the history (I know, I should read more), and I don't know the stats, but somethings are lucidly wrong.

Amrit
Writing Cave

kuffir said...

amrit,

'silly reservations' are the only measurable form of support that can motivate the 'weaker sections' that you talk about to even begun to believe that they have a role, a future in this country.

not reading history, even recent history, or choosing to ignore it... is as old an tradition as the epics most of us remember so very vivdly.

i'm not asking for reservations - i'm asking anti-reservationists to check their rhetoric a little:
1) those who claim good schooling at the school level would obviate the need for reservations should remember that this was an argument that was put forward around fifty years ago too, when the idea of reservations for the backward classes was first broached.. it was not fulfilled.
2) now the current situation you refer to is such that there are a substantial number of obc graduates/candidates are being asked to sacrifice their right to the best indian institutions again so that so-called meritorious students would not be hurt. the govt ensured that the open category students wouldn't be inconvenienced in any way.. but that doesn't seem to satisfy the anti-reservation lobby.. so how are we to understand the situation? it's quite clear their motives are not exactly selfless are unprejudiced.

how can these continue to be called public institutions and receive public funds when they choose to remain exclusive?

as for caste-obsession, one needs to understand how caste was originally constructed before we prescribe solutions for curbing it.. it was constructed from the top- the top most social classes chose to bar entry to other classes and chose to marry within themselves.. and formed endogamous groups. this trait of exclusiveness was imtitated by the classes just lower down and and so on...

so any efforts to curb caste should start right at the top. the castes at the bottom do not have the power or the wherewithal to shake off caste.

if in the last fifty years, if caste had shown any sign of dying down, the lower castes in the country would have been the happiest sections in the country.. has it? less than 5% of our population even today, according to some studies, marries outside caste..

to kill caste, you've to first recognize it and take measures to fight it on all fronts. not merely ask the lower castes to bear its brunt and continue to make sacrifices.

thanks for commenting.

kuffir said...

amrit,

i hope you can get through the typos and other errors in my response..it was written in a hurry.

kuffir said...

krish/shivam/apurva/cosmic voices...

thanks for your approval.

reason/vatsan/ravi srinivas,

thanks to you guys too for your comments.

Amrit said...

Hi Kufr.

Personally, when I oppose reservations, I'm not thinking in terms of anti-OBC or anti-backward classes. I think when one section of our society progresses, we all progress in small or big ways. So for me the question is not about for or against the progress of a particular section: as citizens of this country we have every right to every possible opportunity.

50 years ago education for all was suggested but was never implemented -- it doesn't mean it was a wrong concept.

What troubles me is, various sections of our society staunchly support the reservations. Where are the voices when the atrocities on dalits and the backward castes go unpunished? Why aren't there strong protests when lower caste children are not allowed to attend school in our various villages? Why don't we vociferously advocate justice for all? How many bloggers cried themselves horse when ropes were inserted in the nostrils of a few dalits just to demonstrate they were no different from domestic animals? The answer is simple.

Reservations is an extremely easy step. For this you don't have to work hard for years. Schools are many, but the higher institutions are fewer. So forget providing basic schooling and give them seats in the IIMs and the IITs. Helping them get quality education is laborious, so give them jobs no matter what qualifications they have. Don't give them roads; don't give them water, don't give them food and timely medical help; don't give them schools; let them develop no self-respect; but when they grow up, give them jobs, give them higher education.

Great.

Amrit
Writing Cave

kuffir said...

amrit,

you are missing the whole point - we came to realize fifty years ago that the the lower castes in this country are doing badly in every field.. please think over that again - fifty years. and i'm not talking about the period before that.

if an issue that attracts so much public attention - reservations- doesn't get implemented fully for fifty years,,,do you think any other issue that concerns the lower castes gets the attention it deserves in the course of normal everday governance? even this issue gets this kind of prominence only because access to the best institutions in the country are involved. would there be so much hue and cry if it were merely seats in a govt school in a remote village? the upper castes in this country don't want those seats anyway.

and who exactly is demanding reservations - the media? the courts? not even the politicians were in favour of reservations in this country for a long long time as i pointed out in my post.

try to get at the crux of this whole issuer first before you jump to judgments., you don't think it's your responsiblitity to ask for good schooling for the lower castes? you think the lower castes alone should be asking for redressal of grievances? that they alone should demand justice for atrocities committed on them? don't you see the clear caste divide in what you're saying?

when you don't think the issues that concern the lower castes are of no concern to you... if we are already a divided country, let everyone fight for their own rights. the lower castes have a right to access public resources as much as anyone else. you can't deny them that right.

as far as larger issues, broader issues etc., of development and so on...do you think the lower castes would be capable of gaining access to any fruits of development without asserting their right to the educational resources available? please note that nobody is 'giving them anything' gratis.

the quality of basic education, health and other services - this can be improved only if the establishment wills it. the upper castes hold the reins there- the change has to be initiated there. if you think the lower castes don't want changes there, are not interested in sending their kids to school- think again. the recruitment in all schools in india for the past few years has been over 90%.. more than 50% drop out before they reach class 10 (read my post 'the mess in education watching')..why?

more than anything else, lower caste parents in this country are becoming more and more aware about the need for education.. so who's sending their kids away from school? were you ever interested in this issue, was any upper caste anti-reservationist ever interested in the state of our schools before this issue came up? does the media ever cover this issue on an as regular a basis as it covers the shenanigans of bcci or ash-abhishek or whatever..? why can't schools be covered on tv everyday?

don't think the lower castes are not demanding education at the school level just because the media didn't tell you about it.

Amrit said...

kufr.

Never in my comment did I say that we should all separately crusade for our rights. No, the voice has to come from all of us, collectively, no matter if we are the upper caste, the lower caste, or some mezzanine caste. I'm not bothered about what the upper caste think about the prestigious institutions; my main worry is the real development of the country.

Yes, the issue is right now being debated because of the media coverage and the institutions involved, but we should take it as an opportunity to rake up the real issues plaguing the country. It's not the "how", but the "why" we have to deal with. If we solve the "why", the "how" will be automatically solved. Do you think the government is really interested in improving the lot of the poor, the backward, the lower caste and the OBCs? If they were really concerned we wouldn't have been debating about reservations at this moment in the first place. The only concern our HR minister has is when he will next get a chance to lick the heals of a certain family (I'm almost sounding like a disgruntled journalist here).

Since I've never even seen the main gates of the IITs (on second thought, I've passed the IIT-gate several times in New Delhi while going to the airport etc.) and the IIMs I'm least concerned about their elitism. I'm simply concerned about the way the present government is trying to make an ass of us (by us I mean everybody). They will give the reservations and the world will move on, and we'll all get busy in our own individual ruts, and that's what they really want.

Amrit
Writing Cave

Anoop Saha said...

Great article, Kufr. My comment became too long. Will blog it.

Just one thing. Please use uppercases where appropriate. It helps in making it more reader-friendly. Just a request from a regular reader.

Cosmic Voices said...

Should we avoid taking a proven medication for a disease just because the doctor has a profit motive?

tuluva vellala (bunt mudiraja) said...

Bunt Mudirajas(vellala mudaliars),Shettys(Chettiyars) and Pillais, who are from Tulunad(Karnataka), are descendants of Yadava (greatest Aryan ruling caste) kings, who loathed Brahminism(Sanskrit, Vedas, Puranas and the sacred thread) and went even further away from Brahmins intercaste marriages with the genetically superior(to Aryans) Scythian warrior kings, originally from Scandinavia, who ruled Western India till the Britishers arrived and called themselves Bunt Mudirajas (In Karnataka, Scythian settlers are called Bunts. Mudi=great raja=king). Brahmins called themselves superior in race to other castes, which is obviously false from this and most of them were only beggars/priests. The word Vellala is a corrupted form of the bunt surname ballala and Chettiyar/Chetty is from Shetty, another bunt surname . Almost all Indian kingdoms were of Mudirajas (Guptas, Mauryas, Cheras, Cholas, Pandiyas, Kalabhras, Kadambas, Vijayanagar empire, etc.). Thus the descendants of such great people deserve special previleges like how the brahmins got the highest posts in the British era claiming that they were 'racially superior?'. They are still ruling, aren't they? Most influencial and rich people are mudaliars. Even during the British era, my great grandfather (Raibahadur Ranganatha Mudaliar) studied M.Litt from Oxford Univ. and was the DPI in Chennai. My grandfather was Padmashri V.P.Appadurai Mudaliar, former chairman of TN Electricity Board.
This article is for those who are ignorant of the origin and glory of mudaliars.

tuluva vellala (bunt mudiraja) said...

Almost all hindu emperors were mudaliars and zamindars, gounders, mirazdars, etc were powerful even during the British era. Who could have possibly suppressed us? But why is it written in Manu Smriti that we were shudras because of the neglect of brahmins? Ancestors of brahmins were stupid. They were jealous of the royal blood of mudaliars and wrote blatantly false accounts of their history destroying their original history but history cannot be permanently hidden.In the Manu Smriti, it's written that Kshatriyas were the highest caste actually and thus mudaliars are actually higher than brahmins and thus the highest in the caste system.

tuluva vellala (bunt mudiraja) said...

There is a correction that i'd like to make: It's Raobahadur Ranganadha Mudaliar.

tuluva vellala (bunt mudiraja) said...

Do you know that the kalabhras, who were bunt mudaliars, ruled tamilakam for 3 centuries and ill-treated brahmins, destroyed their history and took away all their land given as bhamadeya by villagers?
Nothing of their other ills caused to brahmins is mentioned in the puranas perhaps due to shame. Tell me, who is to blame. If they had maintained proper accounts of history or atleast not destroyed the history of Kalabhras, they could have got some soft corner from the other castes.
The conclusion is that brahmins are born sufferers and disliked by all and superior to none because of Mudaliars' curse. It is the price that brahmins are having to pay for their ancestors' cheap claim of superiority and dominance to attain a high status in the society, which everyone happily gave with these conditions. Hope their ancestors are happy in their graves seeing their descendants not able to compete with the real upper castes.

Ludwig said...

kufr, well said! i think i agree with most of what you say in this post, and with your responses to comments.

3 generations after independence if the proportion of deprived people is what it is today, i'm not sure how anyone can go with a straight face and say, "wait a little longer, the benefits of the meritocracy will trickle down." or whatever.

kuffir said...

ludwig,

after a while, one gets tired of repeating the same unchanging facts to people... who brush them away with the same unchanging ferocity. i've been doing this for the last twenty years or so.. and what sustains one's dying sense of optimism is that there are other people out there.. like you, who share one's views.

tuluva vellala (bunt mudiraja) said...

Visit my website:www.mudaliars.co.nr
By the way, Mr.M.Karunanidhi belongs to the Isai Vellala (Mudaliar) community and the DMK itself is a Mudaliar backed political party. This shows that OBC reservation will exist forever and ever and ever... atleast for the Mudaliars.

c_b_ammal said...

tuluva vellala says: "Mr.M.Karunanidhi belongs to the Isai Vellala (Mudaliar) community and the DMK itself is a Mudaliar backed"

Mudaliars and Isai Vellalas are two totally separate castes. A Mudaliar would never marry into an Isai Vellala family. The term "Isaia Vellala" is itself a modern term, created by Karunanidhi to replace earlier names which were felt to be slurs.

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